Author Topic: Samsung LE40M86BD Review  (Read 79805 times)

Offline avid

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Re: Samsung LE40M86BD
« Reply #30 on: 15 April 2007, 10:19:54 AM »
Thanks a Million pixels or two Vincent  ;)
Here are my own conclusions based on your excellent, honest and hands-on review:

1. For LCD panels the physical limit of 6-8 ms response will tend to always be present. 100Hz or more clever pre/post-processing might make up for it. But some minor motion artifacts will tend to be present.
2. The other issue for LCD's - that of black levels - seems to have been solved nicely by Samsung in this set ... albeit at the slight expense of shadow detail. But now the comparison draws to minor tweaks within the realms of acceptability.
3. Absolute 'natural' colour reproduction will still tend to be slightly better on tube/plasma sets. Again, the differences are a factor of how much of a videophile one is.

So all in all, this incarnation of Samsung appears to have hit many right notes and come closer to a great bargain especially when compared to the much more expensive X-series Sony. Some of us might have dreamed on video heaven before the review in terms of 'having the complete quality cake and eating it'. Reality bites in the end and, as ever, most of these things are always a compromise. This means, perhaps, that the choice for any of us could again be back to personal preference between Plasma and LCD - the former slightly better for shadow detail, viewing angles and motion tracking, the latter offering crisper digital images for games and the benefits of higher resolution at a similar price point. [not to forget that LCD is a little lighter, less fragile and more energy efficient!]. I will not cloud the issue here with my alternative third way - the LCOS or SXRD offering from Sony which tries to offer the best of both worlds but has its own form factor and other limitations!

For those of us who cannot wait for better technologies or the price to fall down further, I would then agree with you that this LCD at a good price point is a very credible 40" full-HD set - for the price difference I would definitely chose this over the Sony. For plasma lovers the Pioneer is a king at close to the same price point. BTW - I saw a Pioneer 50" full HD set at a local store yesterday and it is simply stunning. I am not going to wait for the 5 grand price to drop to 1 anytime soon, so I will probably do a final trade off between the M-series Samsung and the bigger Sony LCOS soon..... I like the PC-friendly aspects of any LCD technology over and above plasmas despite their great cinematic reproduction qualities.

Another aside - Your accurate review of the blue-like color and gamma tracking probably explains why the demo for Samsung is almost entirely blue in nature ... just like their logo. I remember from days before digital photography took over how Kodak films were known to be better for yellow/red and Fuji were better at green/blue... again, similar to their logo designs!

Thanks again Vincent and keep up the great work.
« Last Edit: 15 April 2007, 10:28:32 AM by avid »

Offline Uridium

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Re: Samsung LE40M86BD
« Reply #31 on: 15 April 2007, 11:44:05 AM »
Thanks for a great site and a great review. I'm afraid I'm not too clever on the more detailed aspects of your review so I lost some of it!

Anyway, I have had an M87 now for a couple of days and must admit to being disappointed so far. The SD picture through Freeview or Sky is very, very poor in my opinion, awful in fact. Is this simply because I haven't tweaked the settings enough? I wouldn't have a clue how to get it to your level - you seemed very happy with the SD output.

Sky HD looks lovely for the most part but I was aware of some motion blur during the FA Cup Semi Final on BBC HD yesterday.

Another blow for me is that I cannot get 1080p through my Xbox 360 on VGA. This is a huge knock for me. I have the HD DVD drive and was looking forward to the beauty of that and having DVDs upscaled too. A US forum suggests you can connect component, activate the 1080 res, reset the xbox and connect the VGA and all will be fine but I haven't been able to confirm this as I don't have access to a component lead. The 1080 display was the clincher for me in choosing to buy this set.

I'll say again, I'm no TV whizkid. This is my first non CRT set so accept that some of my problems are down to my own ignorance in the settings. However, should I really be expected to have to do so much work? Any advice or input would be appreciated as I'm seriously considering returning my set at the moment.  :(

Offline lia01reg

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Re: Samsung LE40M86BD
« Reply #32 on: 15 April 2007, 01:18:57 PM »
Another blow for me is that I cannot get 1080p through my Xbox 360 on VGA. This is a huge knock for me. I have the HD DVD drive and was looking forward to the beauty of that and having DVDs upscaled too. A US forum suggests you can connect component, activate the 1080 res, reset the xbox and connect the VGA and all will be fine but I haven't been able to confirm this as I don't have access to a component lead. The 1080 display was the clincher for me in choosing to buy this set.

I've been waiting for this TV to enable me to watch 1080p on the TV from my Xbox 360 via either component or VGA. Has anyone managed to get it to work via VGA?

Also, is there any difference between the quality in viewing via component or VGA (on the Xbox 360)?

Offline Silver Serpent

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Re: Samsung LE40M86BD
« Reply #33 on: 15 April 2007, 01:31:53 PM »
Hi All,

Great review of the M86.

I was just wondering when you will be putting your preferred settings on the site for this model?


Lots of people are having problems calibrating theirs, so I'm sure this will be very helpful.


Thanks.

Offline Peter

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Re: Samsung LE40M86BD
« Reply #34 on: 15 April 2007, 02:23:20 PM »
Thanks for a great review on this set, Vincent.
I'm also in the market for this set (the 46 inch), I should get it by the end of the month. Just like some others here; if you can give us the calibration settings to get the best quality of picture, that would really be a big help.
Greetz from Belgium. Peter.

Offline DanielTS

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Re: Samsung LE40M86BD
« Reply #35 on: 15 April 2007, 03:18:28 PM »
Thank you for this great review! 

For people with a HTPC or an external video processor, this Sammy could be a perfect LCD TV if it can accept 1080p48 and display at 48Hz without judder.

Offline sidamos

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Re: Samsung LE40M86BD
« Reply #36 on: 15 April 2007, 05:44:42 PM »
Thanks for the review, very interesting read.

Question about MoviePlus: You write, that MoviePlus introduces unwanted motion effects, but without MoviePlus, the deinterlacing is not as good. How bad is the deinterlacing without MoviePlus compared to the F71?

Did you receive an answer yet from Samsung about this problem and also about the autoenabling of MoviePlus?

Also, I'd like to request the settings. Thanks!

Offline krikke

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Re: Samsung LE40M86BD
« Reply #37 on: 15 April 2007, 06:58:04 PM »
Sure would be interesting to have a comparison to the sets in "1080p LCD Shootout".

Offline Thrakier

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Re: Samsung LE40M86BD
« Reply #38 on: 15 April 2007, 07:07:56 PM »
What does the TV do with 24p signals? Are they also messed up because of Movie Mode?


Also, with which of these Connections would I have Problems with Movie Mode?

XBOX 360 via Component @720p for Games
Playstation 3 via HDMI @1080p for BluRay and Games
Upscaling DVD Player via HDMI @720p/1080i (Panasonic S52)
SAT-TV @480i via Scart RGB
Nintendo Wii @480p/i via Component
Playstation 2 @480i via Component

Thanks in advance!

EDIT:

Some Pics of the poor off-axis Performance would be nice also! :)
« Last Edit: 15 April 2007, 07:48:28 PM by Thrakier »

Offline ghost

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Re: Samsung LE40M86BD
« Reply #39 on: 15 April 2007, 07:48:22 PM »
hey great review guys, my question is about the ntsc comment you made - does this model 86/87 accept ntsc signals, i'm asking cos my gamecube and ps2 can play ntsc games so was wondering will they be fine on these models and sorry to reiterate but does this handle progressive scanning well and is it better to have movie mode off when progressively dvd playing/ gaming. Sorry to ask so many questions just i've been waiting nearly a year for a great lcd tv to buy and just dont wanna waste some cash.

Offline GoJoDo

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Re: Samsung LE40M86BD
« Reply #40 on: 15 April 2007, 09:07:31 PM »
Hi Vincent and Everyone else

Just got this set - first impressions are very good - not played around with settings yet ( that comes later ).

I will be mainly using it for PS3 and PC - I have a problem (which Vincent touched on in his review) and hope
someone can offer some assistance.

Connecting PC with a DVI to HDMI cable - set PC resolution to 1920 x 1080  60hz - at first got massive overscan -
going through Nvidia (Geforce 7800GTX Graphics Card) Advanced Timing settings I get a perfect picture, except I
get a single vertical green line on the extreme left of the picture (looks as though image just needs slight shift left).
I also tried using the VGA input - picture is fine however set switches itself off after a couple of seconds - which
is also wierd.

Hope someone can help

Many thanks
GoJoDo

Offline GoJoDo

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Re: Samsung LE40M86BD
« Reply #41 on: 15 April 2007, 09:09:49 PM »
P.S.

Has anyone managed to get into the service menu - usual ways don't appear to work

 ;) GoJoDo  ;)

Offline Greenman_UK

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Re: Samsung LE40M86BD
« Reply #42 on: 15 April 2007, 09:20:25 PM »
Hi Vincent,

I got a LE40M87 this morning and am more or less pleased with it. I've noticed 2 issues:

1) After having the tv on for a few hours with the backlight on at 10, i noticed very obvious clouding.
This all but disappeared if i reduced the backlight level to around 2/3.
After having it on at this lower level for a further hour or two, I think the clouding improved.
When i turned the lbacklight up to check again, it wasnt as bad, although I could still see it.

I'm currently running it with the backlight at around 3-5. Could you comment on this please?
How bad was the clouding that you saw? and how low did you have to reduce the backlight to resolve
the problem?
Is this normal? I've read the articles on the clouding issue, but Im not sure if I have a fault or not.
Maybe its to be expected when the light is on high?

2) All my scart inputs have some form of interference on them. ie. diagonal lines. These are xbox1, ps3 and freeview box sources.
Again, if i turn the brightness down a bit they arent noticable. Do you have any comments? Am I just being paranoid?

thanks for all the hard work! keep it up.


Offline DVL73

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« Reply #43 on: 15 April 2007, 11:41:56 PM »
Quote from: avid
1. For LCD panels the physical limit of 6-8 ms response will tend to always be present. 100Hz or more clever pre/post-processing might make up for it. But some minor motion artifacts will tend to be present.

LCD response time hit the brick wall long ago. There is nothing much more you can do with the technology nor you can over volt the liquid crystals much more at this stage. But this is not the only problem. Another, usually overseen, enemy of the LCD overdrive is ... picture noise and artifacts and that's not a pleasant scene. Also, each panel type has different characteristics when we consifer motion performance. I believe that at this stage, P-MVA and A-MVA (especially) TV panels are best for motion handling and less noise operation. Just look how Toshiba WLT68 done well in that department. 100Hz, Perfect Motion or however you may call it is nice add on (and it's nice to just be there), but that's just stop gap. Unfortunately, still nothing can touch plasma when we comment the motion performance.

Quote from: avid
2. The other issue for LCD's - that of black levels - seems to have been solved nicely by Samsung in this set ... albeit at the slight expense of shadow detail.

Somewhat, I believe that major and probably contributing factor for such nice black levels "perception" is panel coating, as S-PVA technology itself didn't evolved that much lately. As I don't remember that I noticed in the review itself min luminance measurement - I bet that hardware colorimeter will report something like 0.20 - 0.25 cd/m2 (after calibration) for the S-PVA panel of this type. Also, it's not surprise to me that S-PVA can hit raw  ~1100:1 contrast rate, after careful calibration. It's very well known for this.

Personally, I'm huge fan of "Clear" (plasma/crt like) panel coatings ... even glass itself ...  and I don't understand why such manufactures obsession with AR (anti reflective) coatings when we consider LCD panels. There is huge paranoia about the reflections too and again without any reason imho. Carefull arrangement of the lounge ambient light is simply a must anyway. Clear panel coating is improving the colour vibrancy & depth, image focus, purity and overall quality. It's maybe not measurable (and this is normal), but it's there and it's pleasant. With such coatings all you really see is just the image and not LCD surface. Image is just floating there, with a great sense that panel is just the window to another world outside. It's more immersive and it's really introducing that extra vibrance to the spectrum. Another advantage is that such coating is actually absorbing the portion of light hitting the screen and and at the same time allowing the screen image to be displayed without distortion. Sometimes, is really like there is no barrier between you and the liquid crystal. My major problem with AR coatings is that they are introducing the very fine layer of "myst" in the play, which is affecting image clarity. Simply put, you can easily see the panel surface and, as I already explained, light is not absorbed by the screen but refleceted in the form of huge white "blobs". No, thank you. Just give me the glass! I would encourage anyone to personally compare the LCD sets with and without such coatings (if they have a chance or shops near by). You will be surprised.

By the way, I have LCD monitor with NEC OptiClear coating and based on AS-IPS technology. IPS by nature doesn't offer great blacks (0.35 - 0.40 cd/m2 on average), but panel coating itself is doing wonders and nothing can (still) touch the black levels of this panel - perceptively. Then again, such panel coatings are usually introducing problems with shadow details, but that's somewhat controllable with careful calibration - but sometimes is not.

So, well done Samsung for such brave move to bring back the clear coatings! It was about time and I can only salute to such move.

Quote from: avid
But now the comparison draws to minor tweaks within the realms of acceptability.
3. Absolute 'natural' colour reproduction will still tend to be slightly better on tube/plasma sets. Again, the differences are a factor of how much of a videophile one is.
Quote from: avid
For those of us who cannot wait for better technologies or the price to fall down further, I would then agree with you that this LCD at a good price point is a very credible 40" full-HD set - for the price difference I would definitely chose this over the Sony. For plasma lovers the Pioneer is a king at close to the same price point. BTW - I saw a Pioneer 50" full HD set at a local store yesterday and it is simply stunning. I am not going to wait for the 5 grand price to drop to 1 anytime soon, so I will probably do a final trade off between the M-series Samsung and the bigger Sony LCOS soon..... I like the PC-friendly aspects of any LCD technology over and above plasmas despite their great cinematic reproduction qualities.

There is one problem. Because you can't make the LCD polarizers to shut down all the light from the fluorescent lamps, this is the reason why dynamic contrasts are introduced. When LCD monitor receives request to display dark image, backlight will be dimmed (underpowered) but it will intensify transmission through the panel. In practice, it's working OK ... but it's just stop gap solution imho. People shouldn't be fooled with the ridiculous contrast rate spec nowadays (Samsung is very well known for this). Perceptive, dynamic picture may seem more attractive (especially to the novice user), but there are many side effects (like almost "retina burning" over saturated colours, crushed blacks, banding because of the dynamic control, more picture noise and so on). Just give me the panel with rather nice raw contrast rate (and S-PVA is OK in that respect), improved panel coating (clear if possible), backlight control and fine colour tuning (including RGB gains & cuts) and I'm a happy camper. No need for dynamic fuss.

Also, marketed contrast ratio is always emissive (as opposed to reflective) and always measured under the optimum conditions and that includes room in total darkness. In practice, contrast ratio is probably lower because of the light reflection from the surface of the screen (or coating). This is the reason why CRT/Plasma will always triumph in the dark room (as there is no backlight), but on the other hand during daylight or with ambient light LCD is better because CRT/Plasma glass is reflecting the light and spoiling the blacks. Luminance of the display is directly responsible when contrast ratio is reduced because of the room light.

Quote from: avid
So all in all, this incarnation of Samsung appears to have hit many right notes and come closer to a great bargain especially when compared to the much more expensive X-series Sony.

Samsung raised the bar imho. Not only the quality, but price bar too. I didn't expected that they will improve the new series THAT much .... oh didn't I mentioned that Samsung is aesthetically just gorgeous and looks expensive! When you put Sony next to this set, it looks cheap and grumpy. Of course, function is more important than form ... but I don't mind little bit of effort in the design department. Sony is one sleepy giant who is just, well, asleep and expensive (sometimes without any reason). It's time for a wake up call!

Quote from: avid
Some of us might have dreamed on video heaven before the review in terms of 'having the complete quality cake and eating it'. Reality bites in the end and, as ever, most of these things are always a compromise.

Hmmmm ... do we need perfection or heaven in that sense ? I'm affraid that we are starting to be more and more obsessed with the PQ and especially quantity of all those pretty pixels. Well, heck, I want pleasant reproduction but at the same time I don't want to pick up every little imperfection or error detail in the content stream and forget about the CONTENT itself. You can get carried away, easily (noticed that many times on my end). Well, I'm still trilled to visit proper cinema ... and no LCD or Plasma wonder can replace that  ;)

Quote from: avid
For those of us who cannot wait for better technologies or the price to fall down further, I would then agree with you that this LCD at a good price point is a very credible 40" full-HD set - for the price difference I would definitely chose this over the Sony.

I believe that at this moment, Sammy is the finest 40" LCD TV set money can buy.


PS ... sorry for the long post and massive quoting. Your post is interesting and does bring some, again interesting, questions on board. I felt obliged to respond :)

Offline DVL73

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Re: Samsung LE40M86BD
« Reply #44 on: 16 April 2007, 12:02:42 AM »
Quote from: Greenman_UK
I'm currently running it with the backlight at around 3-5. Could you comment on this please?
How bad was the clouding that you saw? and how low did you have to reduce the backlight to resolve
the problem?
Is this normal? I've read the articles on the clouding issue, but Im not sure if I have a fault or not.
Maybe its to be expected when the light is on high?

Don't get me wrong on this one. I believe that "clouding" or in other words panel/backlight uniformity issue deserves classification as DEFECT, at least in my book. Especially when we consider the panels within this price bracket, it's not fair and we (consumers) don't deserve this. Yes, I know that large panels are bringing such risk (as it's hard for manufactures to hide such defects) ... but come on. I'm especially nervous when I hear the comments around that people have to do this and that in order to "mask" the problem, even if that includes underpowering the backlight or further calibration. It simply doesn't put up, as such problems shouldn't be there in first place.

I can't help you much on the settings side (Vincent is your best bet), but I believe that you have to combine the backlight and energy saving settings with the proper contrast/brightness calibration and maybe few other options related to the panel blacks or colour intensity.

Interesting. It seems that it's replicated issue as reported on US models.