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Toshiba 32C3030D Review

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Offline Vincent

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Toshiba 32C3030D Review
« on: 10 April 2007, 05:50:11 PM »

Please discuss Colin's Toshiba 32C3030D review article in this thread.
« Last Edit: 06 August 2007, 12:09:29 AM by Vincent »

Offline Alan

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Re: Toshiba 32C3030D
« Reply #1 on: 10 April 2007, 09:37:58 PM »
An absolutely brilliant review, which is well written and honest about what is a budget screen. Too often a set like this would get high marks purely for it’s price, which is no bad thing and something Toshiba should be commended for but too few reviewers would point out just where your money is NOT being spent and how that will effect your viewing.

I look forward to the Panasonic LCD review, the 70 along with the 700 series is top of my “potential” buy lists, can’t wait!

Alan

Offline drewski

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Re: Toshiba 32C3030D
« Reply #2 on: 12 April 2007, 08:12:56 PM »
Wow, this is the most thorough review I have read of this TV. Kudos to editorial on that one.

Nevertheless, this has stumped me, completely and utterly. I will be buying a 32" HD LCD TV next week and have been researching for weeks of which one to get. Within my £600 price range (using pricerunner, pricegrabber, Kelkoo etc) this seems to be the best TV in that price range. Yet this review has thrown me.

A questions for other users, moderators, editorial: considering my modest budget - is this the best TV I can get? If not, what else?

After weeks of research, I'm coming to a crunch point and would really not want to make a decision (and invest a large sum of money) that I regret.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Offline Colin

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Re: Toshiba 32C3030D
« Reply #3 on: 14 April 2007, 12:37:04 AM »
Thank you, all TVs get the same `treatment' from us but few come out of the other end intact. Haha

I thought long and hard on giving the Toshiba 32C3030D a `below average' rating, especially when I haven't tested many TVs at this size. We aim to plainly state the facts, though I suspect that won't go down well with everyone. We have a strong video bias on our reviews because in that industry, there are actually gold standards in existence that many people don't know about. The primary purpose of our reviews is a tell-all, every strength and fault we can possibly find, but the rating is more like a semi-objective conclusion drawn from these results. 

Although I did not do extensive testing on this, I am confident that the Toshiba is well suited for PC and console gaming use.

I can only suggest that you take every opportunity to visit your local shop for comparison. My personal feeling is that videophile quality is currently not possible at this price point (LCD and Plasma) because most of them are not getting it right at twice the price.

Good luck...


Offline DVL73

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Re: Toshiba 32C3030D
« Reply #4 on: 16 April 2007, 02:03:17 AM »
Quote from: Colin
I can only suggest that you take every opportunity to visit your local shop for comparison. My personal feeling is that videophile quality is currently not possible at this price point (LCD and Plasma) because most of them are not getting it right at twice the price.


Speaking of price point, probably another £100 - £150 will do the trick. It's interesting that 32C3030D failed so miserably in colour quality department. I had a play with the 32WLT68 series not so long ago, and this is what I managed to compile after the initial calibration:

Colour temperature (IRE grey scale tracking):



RGB levels:



CIE Graph:




Not bad for a start as, obviously, proper calibration requires the patience of a saint. I had some minor, but not massively irritating problems with the Gamma tracking (not pronounceable to such extent as with the new Sammy M8 series) and with slight red push here and there  ... still have to flatten those out, if possible:




I wonder if 32C3030D is using "degraded" panel itself or control circuit (when compared to "older" WLT68 series). It may quite possibly happen that WLT68 series is still excelent choice, especially because of the recent price drop. My major criticism for the WLT68 are poor viewing angles (and 32C3030D is no better I guess) and minor issue (at least for me) is that blacks could be better. Generally, I'm not that much obsessed with good blacks with LCD tech as I would never sacrifice proper colour balance (between primary colours especially) just to have good blacks (not to mention shadow details). However, I believe that viewing angles are important aspect and manufactures are either hiding this (realistic spec especially) or pretending that it's not important. I believe it is.




Offline Vincent

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Re: Toshiba 32C3030D
« Reply #5 on: 16 April 2007, 07:10:18 AM »
Impressive results DVL73: your WLT68's CCT tracked closer to D65 than our 32C3030D, and your CIE colour points are almost spot on when referenced to PAL. Quick question, does the WLT68 allow greyscale calibration in the user menu, or do you have to access the service menu for this?

It's a shame that these tweaks still cannot cure the few major issues on 32C3030D and 32WLT68: below average blacks, colour decoding error, and unsatisfactory viewing angle.

With regards to viewing angle I think LCD TVs have come a long way with the advent of S-PVA and IPS alpha panels. Still not up to plasma's standard of course, but enough to stop me complaining.  ;)

Offline DVL73

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Re: Toshiba 32C3030D
« Reply #6 on: 16 April 2007, 03:26:24 PM »
Quote from: Vincent
Impressive results DVL73: your WLT68's CCT tracked closer to D65 than our 32C3030D, and your CIE colour points are almost spot on when referenced to PAL.


Indeed. It was hour or so of the calibration work on HDMI port, from my HD network media player. I was streaming the DVD test patterns (and later HD .ts patterns) and colorimeter was connected to my PC (just to monitor and control the calibration values). I managed to align the CIE CMY colour points with the help from on-screen (not service menu) CMY colour management. I didn't touch the hue/saturation of primaries at all (from the on screen menu). Results were immediately obvious when observing PQ from the video streams. It's rather accurate, neutral and above all "calm" picture. There are plenty of shadow details in the dark scenes and bright scenery is vivid and colourful, but not "in your face".  Skin tones were good too and I could easily spot if someone have a subtle blush, fake or real sun tan, too much (or to less) of the make up and overall "natural" skin tone of each actor is more convincing. Unfortunatelly, I had to decorate my lounge in the middle of the process ... so hopefully will finish testing in the next week or so.

edit:
By the way, you may find here excellent HD (testing) transport streams and calibration patterns. Apart from that, motion patterns (including 3:2 pulldown, 24p and video judder) are also avaliable. You need (network) media player or PC to run the tests from this page.

Quote from: Vincent
Quick question, does the WLT68 allow greyscale calibration in the user menu, or do you have to access the service menu for this?


You wish!  :) Service menu, of course, and have to say that interface is rather "cryptic" and everything but not user friendly.

Quote from: Vincent
It's a shame that these tweaks still cannot cure the few major issues on 32C3030D and 32WLT68: below average blacks, colour decoding error, and unsatisfactory viewing angle.


Here, I believe that blacks are just part of the backlight design and not the panel limitation itself as P-MVA generally offers rarther nice black depth. If you somehow mess up (wrongly) with the backlight, this will sadly reflect on everything else. Actually, WLT68 black lumminance is not unbearable but at the same time it's not the shinny example. Somewhat, middle ground I would say ...

Quote from: Vincent
With regards to viewing angle I think LCD TVs have come a long way with the advent of S-PVA and IPS alpha panels. Still not up to plasma's standard of course, but enough to stop me complaining.  ;)


True. Actually, I believe that IPS alpha have slight edge here. Historically and because of the liquid crystals alligment in S-PVA matrices (as it's still part of the VA tech) off-perpendicular colour shift is still noticeable from close proximity ... although lately there is evident progress from the Samsung on that matter. Luckily enough, we are not observing TV sets from close proximity.

Anyhow, for people with the "cornered" TV placement or if they would like to avoid sweet spots and offer equally good video reproduction to other observers (wife, kids, pets ... and so on  :) ) they should look no further than latest S-PVA or IPS panels.
« Last Edit: 16 April 2007, 03:45:43 PM by DVL73 »

Offline Colin

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Re: Toshiba 32C3030D
« Reply #7 on: 18 April 2007, 01:53:57 PM »
Thank you DVL73, you've been a great contributor. And I thought all the action was over the other side of the Atlantic...

I like what you have done with the Toshiba WLT68, so I hope you won't mind the interrogation... ;D

1) Can you describe what the original CCT graph look like before service menu calibration?

2) What are your reference primaries for the CIE chart?

3) What is the best IPS panel contrast ratio have you heard of or what's the best model out there that uses it?
I used to ignore dynamic CR, but imagine if all companies tried to `cheat' to get the maximum value, we would have a new point of reference...our experience seems to support this.

Offline DVL73

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Re: Toshiba 32C3030D
« Reply #8 on: 19 April 2007, 01:53:39 PM »
Quote from: Colin
Thank you DVL73, you've been a great contributor. And I thought all the action was over the other side of the Atlantic...

I like what you have done with the Toshiba WLT68, so I hope you won't mind the interrogation... ;D


Hey, no worries Colin and thank you for your kind words  :)

Quote from: Colin
1) Can you describe what the original CCT graph look like before service menu calibration?


Huh, it was long ago ... as far as I remember best I could manage to obtain with the stock colour preset was ~ 8300K and that was "warm" setting. "Cool" was giving something like > 10000K or so.  Interestingly enough, there was not much instability in the CCT tracking - it was just matter of constant drift away from the reference point. I think that I'm still keeping the stock charts somewhere, if not I may try to take stock measurements again.

Quote from: Colin
2) What are your reference primaries for the CIE chart?


If you are referring to the CIE colour space reference, it was PAL/SECAM. 90% of my video content is still SD, so I was somewhat reluctant to experiment further. Actually, I was considering to switch completely to rec.709 as it's just about colour primaries (gamma) and I doubt that rec.709 will rampage the greyscale tracking that much, as it's aligned to D65 anyway. Will see ...

Quote from: Colin
3) What is the best IPS panel contrast ratio have you heard of or what's the best model out there that uses it?
I used to ignore dynamic CR, but imagine if all companies tried to `cheat' to get the maximum value, we would have a new point of reference...our experience seems to support this.


Regarding IPS panels, we have rather interesting situation as IPS is slowly emerging from the high end sector. Before, it was only privilege for colour enthusiast (colour critical eye) but IPS developed drastically well and excellent viewing angles, consistent colour quality and good response times are driving more commercial need for such panels. Not sure if you are aware, but main commercial supplier of IPS panels is LG.Philips and to put things in more interesting prospect we have now the new player: "IPS Alpha" or in my view "budget IPS". IPS Alpha is joint venture of Hitachi, Matsushita and Toshiba and they are making panels based on this technology. Suprisingly enough, Toshiba is still reluctant to integrate this technology in their own LCD TV sets.

Related to your question, probably best example how properly integrated LG.Philips panels are doing wonders was relatively old Philips 32PF9830, although I think that Philips switched to Sharp ASV panel with the newer 37PF9731D. Only downside is that this comes with a price and it's no surprise to me that IPS Alpha is introduced because of this. LG.Philips are premium panels with premium integration price. If you are interested, here you may find the list of the readily available LG.Philips panels for TV integration and here you may find more info about the S-IPS panels. It's somewhat old document, but it's still a good read. Regarding latest models, I'm not quite sure where the LG.Philips is present ... I guess that investigation is needed.

Regarding the best IPS contrast ratio, I believe that best panels will struggle to cross the (post calibration) 700:1 raw contrast rate. While we are on the subject, probably two major and important aspects where IPS panels are still struggling are black levels and contrast ratio, but with some clever panel circuitry sometimes it's possible to mask them to some extent. However, apart from viewing angels, huge advantage points (in my view) with IPS panels are excellent colour accuracy and fantastic colour balance. Speaking of colour balance, simply nothing is standing out of the colour crowd and it's such joy to watch such picture.

If Panny TX32LXD70 is a sign of things to come with IPS and on this price level, we have some interesting times ahead. No doubt. Things can only improve with the next refresh and I wouldn't be surprised if IPS will emerge in completely new form and completely cured from some historic (technology related) issues.

By the way, I think that Hitachi 32LD9700 is another "budget" panel based on IPS alpha.


Regards,
Igor

Offline andrewfee

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Re: Toshiba 32C3030D
« Reply #9 on: 25 April 2007, 12:59:53 AM »
It's a shame that these tweaks still cannot cure the few major issues on 32C3030D and 32WLT68: below average blacks, colour decoding error, and unsatisfactory viewing angle.


I was wondering about this - from the review it seems like the only setting you changed in the colour management was adjusting the magenta hue, yet you complained of a red push, which should be fixable, assuming the 32C3030D has the same hue/saturation adjustments as the WLT68 does.

While the actual colours aren't quite right (as you can see from the high DeltaE on some - but it is an LCD after all) I was able to get the saturation almost perfect on my WLT68:



When greyscale was calibrated to D65, my colour settings were:
    Colour: 40
    Red: 0 -4
    Green: -2 -5
    Blue: +3 -3
    Yellow: -1 0
    Magenta: +1 -8
    Cyan: 0 -5

and at the default "normal" temperature it was:
    Colour: 40
    Red: +1 +3
    Green: 0 -1
    Blue: +5 -12
    Yellow: 0 +5
    Magenta: +5 0
    Cyan: 0 -14

The colour control seems to adjust where the primaries/secondaries are, with the RGBCMY adjustments changing how saturation is distributed between 0 and 100%.

I am surprised that +5 to the magenta hue was all you felt needed changing, considering how flexible the system on the WLT68 is, especially if you had a red push.

I was wondering if you would be able to include RGBCMY saturation levels in future reviews, as it is of great interest to me. It's one thing to get the primaries (and secondaries) in the right place, but another to get the saturation correct. I can't stand the super-saturated colours of the BRAVIAS, for example.

Rather than using full screen patterns, I now use these, which are much quicker. They may not be quite as accurate due to screen uniformity, but I can live with that due to the increase in speed. (adjusting the colour decoder involves a lot of iteration)


I fully agree with you about the average black levels and poor viewing angle on the Toshiba LCDs though - it's one of the reasons I'm looking to sell it and upgrade (I'm also wanting to go from 37" to something around 46-52") but I don't have a lot of time to go out and evaluate TVs. Colour reproduction is the most important thing to me in a display above all else (assuming there is no obnoxious processing going on of course) and I can't stand oversaturation, which seems to be where a lot of manufacturers are heading with their Wide Colour Gamut displays.

I'm very tempted by the Pioneer plasmas, as it looks like they have great colour reproduction and adjustments, but I'm worried about the green trails (I've been told that only affects Panasonic models though?) and flicker, as I had to return a Panasonic plasma for both of those issues - it was completely unwatchable in my opinion.

Offline SirTiger

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Re: Toshiba 32C3030D
« Reply #10 on: 25 April 2007, 01:10:36 PM »
and at the default "normal" temperature it was:
    Colour: 40
    Red: +1 +3
    Green: 0 -1
    Blue: +5 -12
    Yellow: 0 +5
    Magenta: +5 0
    Cyan: 0 -14

I'm probably going to get the 37" wlt68 and and am a complete noob when it comes to calibrating (so don't want to go into any service menus for the greyscale options) and found these settings on a forum:

Backlight-50(30 when watching in the dark)
Contrast-70
brightness-53
Colour-43
Sharpness and Tint should both be left at zero
Turn off all 'picture enhancers'(Anyone who knows about tv calibration will tell you that they actually spoil the picture) that is 'black-stretch,MPEG NR and DNR
Set colour temp to NORMAL.


Would these combine with the ones you used to make the best-looking picture ever, or should the ones you suggested do ok, or just the ones from the forum... or should I stop being such a noob and is this a completely silly question?!  ???  :P  :-\

Offline Vincent

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Re: Toshiba 32C3030D
« Reply #11 on: 25 April 2007, 05:23:08 PM »
@andrewfee: Thanks for bringing up a very interesting point. As we do not own a spectrophotometer that's accurate across all spectral intensities (last I checked it costs north of US $5000 excluding import duties), we used colour bars/ filters/ movie reference scenes to align the colour decoders. Nothing we did to the "Hue", "Saturation" and "Brightness" in the 3D Colour Management submenu on the Toshiba 32C3030D eliminated the red push.

But I'm intrigued by the method you're using, especially if it means we can migrate towards a more objective way of colour decoding adjustment. Could you describe what define the x and y-axis in your first graph, and how did you make the measurements?

@SirTiger: Using other peoples' settings can get you near the ballpark but to get a result that's accurate for your input source you need to calibrate the TV yourself. If you're not intending to go down the latter route I'd suggest that you simply try out the settings and see which one you like.

Offline DVL73

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Re: Toshiba 32C3030D
« Reply #12 on: 26 April 2007, 12:22:43 AM »
Right.  I guess that we observe "Saturation" as a term to describe the colour purity. In other words, it should measure how free each of the primary colours are from the influence of other primaries.

I would say that two major factors that influence a display ability to present a well formed and saturated picture are accuracy of primary colours and stability of instantaneous ANSI contrast. Interestingly enough, even ambient light is affecting the instantaneous contrast as, for example, strong light reflections may wash out the picture details and affect overall colour saturation. Because of such environmental factors, producing the saturation charts which are replicable across different environments is somewhat tricky.  In TV world is even more difficult as people are comparing moving images (video feeds) and not static pictures or patterns (as with colour critical displays and colour critical work when saturation is very important).

Personally, I use CIE chromaticity diagram to eyeball if display primaries are undersaturated, saturated or oversaturated when compared to reference values. In some general sense, if the primary colour is nicely or nearly matched with the reference (defined) point than it's saturated, if it's inside of the triangle is undersaturated and if it's outside of the triangle is oversaturated.

So, are we talking about this or defining the saturation in a way how vibrant or rich colours are across the percent of stimulus ?   :)

Regarding WLT68, I was able to nicely align the secondary colour points with the help from the set-up CMS (colour management system) but the primaries adjustments were just moving the measurement points slightly inside or outside of the CIE triangle (almost linear compared to the starting point) but nowhere near to the reference points. I decided that probably best way is to leave it as it is and adjust the RGB cuts and gains from service menu in order to achieve proper CCT tracking.

It's interesting that we have here (from andrewfee) completely different observation methods reflected on, again, completely different calibration results.



Offline andrewfee

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Re: Toshiba 32C3030D
« Reply #13 on: 26 April 2007, 02:36:53 AM »
@andrewfee: Thanks for bringing up a very interesting point. As we do not own a spectrophotometer that's accurate across all spectral intensities (last I checked it costs north of US $5000 excluding import duties), we used colour bars/ filters/ movie reference scenes to align the colour decoders. Nothing we did to the "Hue", "Saturation" and "Brightness" in the 3D Colour Management submenu on the Toshiba 32C3030D eliminated the red push.

But I'm intrigued by the method you're using, especially if it means we can migrate towards a more objective way of colour decoding adjustment. Could you describe what define the x and y-axis in your first graph, and how did you make the measurements?


Firstly, I realise I had made a wrong assumption - I thought you had been using Colorimeter HCFR for taking the measurements, but it seems that may not be the case, as I just noticed your graphs are not watermarked. (what software/hardware do you use?)

Secondly, it looks like my results may not be that accurate from the sounds of things, as I am currently using a colorimeter, rather than a spectrophotometer. (an X-Rite DTP94, which was recently purchased as an upgrade from a Spyder2)

Having said that, visually, the results of this calibration certainly do look like an improvement to me. There is no longer a red push to my eyes.

With the "colorimeter hcfr" software, there is a section to measure RGB primaries, and CMY secondaries to plot out the display's gamut, but you can also measure the individual saturation levels of each in 25% steps. (I had created my own patterns using the colour values required, as posted above, rather than using full-screen patterns, as it was quicker - though I have now gone back to using the full-screen ones)

There are three different diagrams that show the results of these measurements.

If you measure the primaries and secondaries first, to plot out the gamut, everything then becomes relative to that. For these measurements, I did not measure the primareies/secondaries, which means that everything is being compared against Rec.709 (which is why 100% has a high DeltaE for most colours)

The first is the saturation one:

(taken from my latest calibration, as I'm constantly tweaking)

The upper graph is the saturation of each colour. X axis is going from 0-100% (though the results are only marked at 25% intervals) and Y is the saturation from -100% to +100%. Normally I would change the scale of this to ±5% as it makes things a lot easier to see. You can hover over each reading to find out exactly how much over, or under saturated a colour is. On this run, my maximum was +3.08% with 75% yellow, and the minumum -3.54% with 100% red.

To adjust this, obviously, I use the Colour and RGBCMY saturation controls on the display. Colour sets the 100% value, with the RGBCMY controls mostly just affecting 25% - 75%, which is how I was able to bring things in within about ±3% of ideal. (at least according to the colorimeter)

I wouldn't describe saturation as being the "purity" of the colour, but how "strong" it was. Eg if saturation is too high, an input of 75% red might end up actually being displayed as what 80% red should be.

The lower half of this is DeltaE, which measures how accurate the actual colour is. The lower the better, obviously. As you can see here, greens, blues, cyans and yellows are all fairly good, but reds and magentas are not, which is typical for LCDs. (at least ones that aren't using wide colour gamut technology) This is mostly adjusted with the RGBCMY hue controls.

The second graph is a luminance one, and would presumably be affected by the RGBCMY brightness controls, if this set had them. Unlike the WLT66 or the C3030D, the WLT68 only has hue/saturation controls. Presumably the '68 is using newer processing which could explain why I was able to eliminate a red push, whereas you weren't able to.




The third visualisation is on a CIE diagram:


As I mentioned above, for this measurement, I did not plot the gamut, as it means the readings I get are compared to the ideal, rather than being relative to what the display is capable of. This is why red at 100% has such a high DeltaE, and is undersaturated by 3.5%. If I were to make my adjustments relative to that, it would mean all reds would be undersaturated by 3.5%, whereas I have all red up to at least 75% perfectly saturated this way. That's something I would only do if the display's gamut is close to Rec.709 though - I would hate to see how something with a much wider gamut looked this way.

The reason I did this, rather than making the adjustments relative to what the display was capable of is because the end result is more accurate, and results in a more pleasing image, to my eyes at least.

The same applies to hue. I were to have adjusted the yellow hue so that 100% yellow was exactly where it was supposed to be (as it seems you do with the measurements you take) it would mean everything had a green tint. This way, 0-75% yellow is all pure yellow, with only the brightest yellows being slightly off.

It's the same thing with red - rather than having most reds with a slight orange tint, 0-75% is a lot closer to the ideal, with only the brightest reds being affected, rather than all of it.

As the saturation is within around 3% of ideal, you can see that all the points are evenly spaced from the centre to the edge of the gamut. If a display was over-saturating things, they would be pushed towards the outside edge, which is how this was initially. You can see that with yellows, 50% is slightly undersaturated, and 75% is oversaturated, which is why there is a larger gap between them.


I hadn't even considered the fact that my colorimeter is probably not accurate across all spectral intensities though, so these results won't be 100% accurate. That alone now has me thinking about purchasing a spectrophotometer, though I would have gone for the obvious choice of a Gretag MacBethe Eye One. With you mentioning $5000, that is a lot more than one of those costs, so presumably it isn't up to the task then? An Eye One would be pushing things for me, as I had a hard enough time justifying a colorimeter. (and only bought the DTP94 as I got the money for it from selling my Spyder2 Pro - though the increase in speed/repeatability was certainly worth it)

Interestingly, I recently lent my Spyder2 to a friend before selling it, and on his Sony KDL40W2000 using this method he ended up with a colour setting of 60 as being the best, which matches up with your suggested settings. While it may not be 100% accurate, it certainly does seem to help using this method, in my opinion.

Offline Vincent

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Re: Toshiba 32C3030D
« Reply #14 on: 26 April 2007, 10:43:06 PM »
Wow, andrewfee, my heartfelt thanks for taking the time to detail your technique. I've downloaded HCFR with the full intention of trying it out on some new LCD TVs arriving this week and next, of which the Toshiba 42X3030D hopefully will have similar colour controls to the 3030D/ WLT68 allowing me to get up to speed.

Yes, Gretag Macbeth Eye One Pro would be the most logical and least wallet-busting upgrade, but from what I've read is still inaccurate at lower IREs. Of course lack of funding prohibits us from splashing out – much as we'd like to – on a commercial grade colorimeter like Sencore CP5000 or (gasp) an industrial spectrophotometer like PR-650.

Back to your method... it has certainly opened my eyes and I'm excited by the possibilities. I have so many questions but probably should answer them myself by experimenting on the new LCD TVs. But to aid further discussion, let's synchronise our terminologies for everyone concerned so that we can communicate on the same wavelength (pun fully intended). What follows is my understanding from CIE definitions/ Poynton's extracts:

Saturation

  • Definition: How pure or dominant the hue of a colour is.
  • Representation On CIE Diagram: Draw a line from the white point to the border of the triangle... the line will represent degrees of saturation for that particular hue. Closer to white = less saturated; further from white = more saturated. Hence DVL73's eyeball technique: inside the triangle = undersaturated; outside the triangle = oversaturated.
  • Analogy: Red that is desaturated becomes pink.

Brightness

  • Definition: Also interchanged loosely with "lightness", "value", "intensity", "luminance", etc although purists will have separate definition for each. It refers to how dark or light the hue is.
  • Representation On CIE Diagram: Not represented, although I like to imagine it being in a plane perpendicular to the x,y on CIE.
  • Analogy: Reduced brightness/ intensity will turn bright Ferrari red into dark maroon.

My understanding of red push is that it's a colour decoder misalignment that can come from oversaturation but more likely from excessive intensity. That's why people can get perfect primary chromaticities on CIE diagrams and yet still see red push... because intensity is not recorded on the chart.

Now with your first graph it appears that you are still only adjusting saturation (forgive me if I'm wrong as I'm not familiar with HCFR at this moment) albeit across 4 points,  but as you no longer see any red push (I take it there was some pre-calibration) the logical explanation would be that your intensity was correct from the outset, or was corrected either purposely or coincidentally with the CMS control adjustments.

Which brings us to the second graph which – if it is what I think it is – plots luminance/ intensity at different saturation points. If anything your red is less intense compared to reference between 0% to 75%, which will again explain the absence of red push.

But top class info there andrewfee, this ingenious technique and software may well empower us with objective measurements rather than bleed-prone filters and subjective eyeballing for colour decoding alignment... I shall try them out and report back. :)

Many thanks again.

Warmest regards
Vincent

P.S. Of course, since you're so obsessive about colour reproduction, you do realise that you need a display unit that's capable of D65 greyscale across most intensities... I wonder how did your WLT68 fare?
« Last Edit: 27 April 2007, 01:20:55 AM by Vincent »