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Samsung E6500 Plasma Discussion Thread

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Offline SETEM

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Re: Samsung E6500 Plasma Discussion Thread
« Reply #1335 on: 07 February 2015, 01:39:36 PM »

The XRGB can display perfectly aligned scanlines in a 720p output, and on the D8000 these lines did appear a tiny bit uneven. This isn't a big deal, and it's really obvious why, since 720p > 1080p doesn't scale evenly. Still the E6500 (and the Sony W905) scales this pretty damn perfect :)
Huh, what do you mean? Horizontal and vertical scaling are equal: 1920/1280=1,25 and 1080/720=1,25.
Either way, I've played more than my fair share of games in 720p (although none with scanlines) and I'd be surprised if Panasonic's scaling couldn't get the scanlines right.


So it's a pass on this screen for me. Now I'm considering a 50 inch (which is large enough anyway) Panny VT60 that's for sale nearby. As far as I could figure out it's the equivalent of the VT65 sold in the UK...?
Yep.

It's faster than the D8000, and has better blacks. I was glad to find that it supports both Full and Limited RGB Range, as other Panasonic Plasmas I've had prior did not do this. Although I wonder if this really makes much difference on a Plasma anyway because of the dithering effect used to display the image?
MUCH better blacks 8) :) And a much better screen filter for holding onto those blacks during the day, too - I used to work in a shop where we had a 65" VT50 next to a 64" D8000, and the D8000 looked quite a bit more washed out under the shop lighting there. (The Sammy might be a tiny bit better at diffusing reflections, though.)

Funny you should mention the Full vs Limited RGB, because I was playing The Last of Us Remastered on the PS4 last night and I had a quick look at this, and then I saw this post right after... The VT60's options for RGB range are "Normal", "Full" and "Auto" and all three functioned properly with the PS4. I could not see any difference, though (when they were set properly). I only tried it very quickly, so I might give it a go again. And I may not; It's more of a curiosity thing, because the images displayed in limited "mode" leaves little to be desired.

Btw, regarding dither, you can switch the VT60 to a panel driving mode where the near black dither is (almost?) non-existent (and overall dither elsewhere also seems to improve slightly - it's already excellent) although you sacrifice light output and the mll (black level) gets a tiny bit lighter. The mll is still outstanding, but I think most would prefer the little extra black depth (and the extra light output) in exchange for little bit more dither. Still, it could be a handy option for some :)

No RGB444 is a bit of a bummer, but the better blacks and no brightness pop can make up for this. There's no perfect panel for me, so I'll have to consider the pros and cons of each :)
Well, it has an option called [1080p Pure Direct] (only works with 1080p input, duh) which claims to "preserve" 4:4:4. Although I remember seeing other reviewers mention that it does display 4:4:4 correctly, David Mackenzie says in the review here that it doesn't quite do so - although it's close. I'm guessing it "upscales" the chroma information, then... And I can easily see that it does in fact clean up the odd slightly softened coloured transition when I get up close (0.3-1.0 meters?) on a still image, but so far it's been very difficult to spot such differences from my normal viewing position (1.8-1.9 meters on a 55" screen) :lol:


50" VT60? I'd say go for it. However, make sure you do some checks for uniformity issues, though!!! There have been quite a few reports about the 50" version having severe issues with screen uniformity. Obviously, no screen is perfectly uniform, but it goes without saying that some are worse than others. And if there's one issue with TV's which has a habit of ambushing owners (who haven't checked for them) after going unnoticed for a little while, it's uniformity issues :chin: Panel uniformity has often been said to be a bit of a lottery - no matter what TV you're looking for - so, good luck with that one! :nod:
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Offline Konsolkongen

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Re: Samsung E6500 Plasma Discussion Thread
« Reply #1336 on: 08 February 2015, 02:41:22 PM »
Huh, what do you mean? Horizontal and vertical scaling are equal: 1920/1280=1,25 and 1080/720=1,25.
Either way, I've played more than my fair share of games in 720p (although none with scanlines) and I'd be surprised if Panasonic's scaling couldn't get the scanlines right.


No I mean the vertical resolution doesn't scale evenly to 1080p. 1080/720 = 1.5. Which makes it difficult for displays to perfectly scale images with perfectly aligned horizontal bars. Here's a few pictures of scanlined games on a 50" ST50 (click on them to watch a bigger version):



See how some of the dark lines aren't as thick as others? The Samsung E6500 just nailed this, and with zero visible ringing too. In this regard the Panasonics I've seen have performed pretty poor compared to Samsung, especially the amount of ringing. Still, the VT60 might have a better scaler. Never seen the XRGB-mini on one :)

EDIT: But this won't be the the deciding factor. Even though the second picture looks pretty bad, it's almost never noticeable :)

Quote
Btw, regarding dither, you can switch the VT60 to a panel driving mode where the near black dither is (almost?) non-existent (and overall dither elsewhere also seems to improve slightly - it's already excellent) although you sacrifice light output and the mll (black level) gets a tiny bit lighter. The mll is still outstanding, but I think most would prefer the little extra black depth (and the extra light output) in exchange for little bit more dither. Still, it could be a handy option for some :)


I'll keep that in mind. But I'd probably prefer better blacks too :) Never was too bothered by the dithering.
Well, I was when I got my very first Panasonic S20 Plasma years ago, and I had my nose up against the screen to look for dead pixels. I thought that it looked god awful, until I stepped back a bit, and it became completely unnoticeable :)

Quote
50" VT60? I'd say go for it. However, make sure you do some checks for uniformity issues, though!!! There have been quite a few reports about the 50" version having severe issues with screen uniformity. Obviously, no screen is perfectly uniform, but it goes without saying that some are worse than others. And if there's one issue with TV's which has a habit of ambushing owners (who haven't checked for them) after going unnoticed for a little while, it's uniformity issues :chin: Panel uniformity has often been said to be a bit of a lottery - no matter what TV you're looking for - so, good luck with that one! :nod:


Yes I'll make sure to look for that. The ST50 had HORRIBLE screen uniformity, which was the reason I decided to return the set. Here's a picture of it:


The seller of the VT60 had taken a picture of it with a gray screen for the listing. I couldn't make out if there was uniformity issues or not. But he said that he never noticed anything. So I'm hopeful that it doesn't have any.

It's a used set, obviously, so if it doesn't have any uniformity issues, it shouldn't develop any in the near future. I usually develops during the break-in period, right? The S20 I had never did, but that was a 42", and I get the feeling that uniformity usually gets worse the bigger the TV...?

Thanks for all your help so far :)
« Last Edit: 08 February 2015, 02:50:55 PM by Konsolkongen »

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Offline SETEM

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Re: Samsung E6500 Plasma Discussion Thread
« Reply #1337 on: 09 February 2015, 11:24:26 PM »
See how some of the dark lines aren't as thick as others? The Samsung E6500 just nailed this, and with zero visible ringing too. In this regard the Panasonics I've seen have performed pretty poor compared to Samsung, especially the amount of ringing. Still, the VT60 might have a better scaler. Never seen the XRGB-mini on one :)
Haha, at first I was thinking "... No ???", but then I noticed it :lol: Hard to spot when looking at each line individually, but yes, I can see how that could be either mildly annoying or a bit of a bonus if gotten right :)

The ST50 had HORRIBLE screen uniformity, which was the reason I decided to return the set. Here's a picture of it:

Yeah, that did NOT look good! :-[

It's a used set, obviously, so if it doesn't have any uniformity issues, it shouldn't develop any in the near future. I usually develops during the break-in period, right? The S20 I had never did, but that was a 42", and I get the feeling that uniformity usually gets worse the bigger the TV...?
Well, I'm not sure. There are many theories about screen uniformity and many factors that play in. All I can say is that my old 50" G30 has over 4700 hours on it and has more or less exactly the same screen uniformity as it had ootb, and even slightly better. There are still some faint vertical bands which are visible every now and then during certain pans, which have been there since day 1. Very good uniformity, though. My current TV, the 55" VT60 has something a little reminiscent of what you posted in the ST50-pic above, only it covers nowhere near that large an area of the screen, and it's only visible on a couple of very specific colour shades of like light blue and light beige/brown at very specific APL (I think the APL must be the deciding factor, anyway), and only on full screen, since it's far up top somewhat to the left - been there since day 1 and it now has something like ~2500 hours. Great uniformity on this one, too. Needless to say, I have defintely never done anything which could have caused any of the slight uniformity "imperfections" on these two sets. Same with my dad's 42" S10 and his 42" ST60, although they both seem perfect, apart from the S10 sometimes creating some (false) purple and green dither right down in the left corner when it should be white (at very specific APL's, have only seen it twice over a longer period of time), after probably around 10'000 hours of use. His ST60 is at about 3000 hours now and still "perfect". On the other hand... I've had image retention which has stuck around for everything from 2 minutes to a day to like a month, and those have not affected screen uniformity after they disappeared! :P

So, my guess is that more than anything a panel's uniformity has to do with processes that go on in the factory, and how heat affects it over it's lifespan. Also, the likelihood of some uniformity imperfection probably does go up with the size of the screen, especially if it is related to the actual glass substrates (or whatever it's called)...

If it looks good, it's probably worth a shot. You can't really predict the future of any TV you buy anyway :) Just look at my 42" G20 - looked perfect for 1.5 years until, all of a sudden, it's Y-board or something crapped out... Long story short: Panasonic replaced it with a 50" G30 :)

Thanks for all your help so far :)
Happy to help :)
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Offline Konsolkongen

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Re: Samsung E6500 Plasma Discussion Thread
« Reply #1338 on: 10 February 2015, 09:55:38 PM »
Thanks again. Yes if the screen looks good (very minor uniformity issues and zero dead/stuck pixels) then I'll buy it :)

My Sony W905 has amazing black levels using local dimming, during the daytime or when the lights are on. I believe it's around 0.02cd/m2, and I have a really hard time imagining better blacks. Then again I have had my hands on two LG OLEDs at work, but never got the chance to watch them in the dark :)