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Why copying settings from the web won't get you a calibrated TV

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Offline fahrenheit

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Re: Why copying settings from the web won't get you a calibrated TV
« Reply #30 on: 16 June 2012, 12:22:30 AM »

I guess, sharing personal settings can't do as much harm as not knowing about calibration principles at all.

That is debatable.

David's example shows that you can make a margin of error even wider just by punching in someone elses settings. If I were completely ignorant of calibration and picture quality, then I wouldn't be able to know whether I've improved or worsened the end result.
If I get a bad result, am I any closer to understanding what constitues picture quality, or am I led further away from understanding....?

Having said that, I have come to the conclusion that there is a real desire for these types of recommended settings and when people have a vacuum of information, they do some fairly stupid things.

We all know that D-Nice has been doing this for some time now and although he has clearly written disclaimers stating that his settings are strictly for North American TVs, that doesn't seem to stop some people from attempting to follow.
In a recent example on a forum I frequent, a new owner attempted to tell everyone how to set up their TV with what he had gleemed from D-Nice's settings. Some of these settings are named differently on the north american sets, some of them don't even exist, but this didn't stop this person from re-engineering everything to suit...
The amount of failure in this person's post was too great to reproduce (and I don't wish to defame anyone in another forum), but the best example was that they had set Side Panel to Mid thinking that they were setting Panel Brightness to Mid just like in D-Nice's instructions. For anyone who doesn't know what side panel is, its the pillar box bars either side of a 4:3 ratio picture. Its a function that is for panel aging and has nothing to do with panel brightness which is completely missing on the non-north american units.

So regardless of the end result, I do think that it is beneficial to have someone like David to post his settings, because its a hell of a lot better than people trying to copy settings from a fundamentally different panel.
« Last Edit: 16 June 2012, 12:25:01 AM by fahrenheit »

Offline David Mackenzie

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Re: Why copying settings from the web won't get you a calibrated TV
« Reply #31 on: 16 June 2012, 12:56:36 AM »
Quote
David's example shows that you can make a margin of error even wider just by punching in someone elses settings. If I were completely ignorant of calibration and picture quality, then I wouldn't be able to know whether I've improved or worsened the end result.

That's what I'm afraid of, and why I made this thread. I wouldn't want people to stop experimenting. But my fear is that people copy someone else's settings and then think they're getting an accurate image; that it's a job done.
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Offline fahrenheit

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Re: Why copying settings from the web won't get you a calibrated TV
« Reply #32 on: 16 June 2012, 02:10:04 AM »
That's what I'm afraid of, and why I made this thread. I wouldn't want people to stop experimenting. But my fear is that people copy someone else's settings and then think they're getting an accurate image; that it's a job done.

I don't think you can avoid that. I figure that those types of people are going to fiddle and convince themselves that they are making things better, regardless of whether or not there are any guideline to follow.
Of course you'll still get the ones that say "the end result was too dark, so I made brightness +25 and it looks way better!"

Offline David Mackenzie

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Re: Why copying settings from the web won't get you a calibrated TV
« Reply #33 on: 16 June 2012, 02:27:20 AM »
Right, I've seen threads of settings on AVForums and other sites where people say things like, "I copied those settings, then I tweaked them a bit to suit my tastes" - which is to completely miss the point of calibration.

Still, tweaking settings and observing the differences is a good way to learn what the controls do.
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Offline fahrenheit

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Re: Why copying settings from the web won't get you a calibrated TV
« Reply #34 on: 16 June 2012, 05:21:19 AM »
Absolutely.

I really liked D-Nice's suggestion at the shootout about having a setup wizard when a new TV is installed as a way of getting people more informed/interested in the benefits of calibration.

It just needs the will of the manufacturers to implement it.

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Offline panman40

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Re: Why copying settings from the web won't get you a calibrated TV
« Reply #35 on: 16 June 2012, 06:19:12 AM »
Absolutely.

I really liked D-Nice's suggestion at the shootout about having a setup wizard when a new TV is installed as a way of getting people more informed/interested in the benefits of calibration.

It just needs the will of the manufacturers to implement it.

Something like LG's Setup Wizard is quite useful for inexperianced owners wanting to improve there Picture, Indeed i used to use it for some sources when i had an LG.
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Offline FoxHounder

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Re: Why copying settings from the web won't get you a calibrated TV
« Reply #36 on: 16 June 2012, 10:12:26 AM »
I guess, sharing personal settings can't do as much harm as not knowing about calibration principles at all.

That is debatable.

David's example shows that you can make a margin of error even wider just by punching in someone elses settings. If I were completely ignorant of calibration and picture quality, then I wouldn't be able to know whether I've improved or worsened the end result.
If I get a bad result, am I any closer to understanding what constitues picture quality, or am I led further away from understanding....?
Okay, maybe I was a bit incorrect here. What I meant is that experimenting with settings AND reading sources like HDTVtest at the same time (with all the disclaimers) may provide some insight on how controls work, not the "fiddling for the sake of fiddling".
Or "copycat calibraion", which is also totally wrong, of course. But when the people will go through trial and error process, at least they will see something like "okay, now the green tint is gone, but some shades became reddish. That controls really have fundamental effect on the picture, I should consider the precise adjustment".

Still, tweaking settings and observing the differences is a good way to learn what the controls do.
That's what I meant to say. Of course, thinking that "copycat calibration" gets you an accurate image is totally wrong. But it is also stated very clear in disclaimer. "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." So, with the right directions, someone will eventually end up on the right road to proper calibration instead of futile experiments.
There's no harm in sharing each own calibrated settings, as long as they go with appropriate disclaimer. And in case with this thread, it's made totally clear that copying and calibration is not the same thing.
« Last Edit: 16 June 2012, 10:18:33 AM by FoxHounder »
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Offline FoxHounder

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Re: Why copying settings from the web won't get you a calibrated TV
« Reply #37 on: 16 June 2012, 10:21:37 AM »
Something like LG's Setup Wizard is quite useful for inexperianced owners wanting to improve there Picture, Indeed i used to use it for some sources when i had an LG.
Yeah, I saw that too. That could be a great instrument for beginners, if implemented properly.
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Offline JrCalibrator

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Re: Why copying settings from the web won't get you a calibrated TV
« Reply #38 on: 16 June 2012, 06:16:34 PM »
I think the "problem" here is that everyone is talking about different things.
First of all everyone should answer to the question : what is an accurate picture ? And what is an acceptable  one?
I mean, copying settings could put you in a "right" direction ( alleviating green cast for ex.) but at the same time could make worse many other things;

So if you have a giant or blatant error you want to reduce and  accept to MAKE WORSE many other aspects that are "less visible " to your naked eyes, copying settings could have sense; but this does not help to educate people to what is an accurate picture and it is a personal choice.

So ok to post and share settings but i do not agree at all when you say that is beneficial for casual users!
« Last Edit: 16 June 2012, 06:39:54 PM by JrCalibrator »

Offline SETEM

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Re: Why copying settings from the web won't get you a calibrated TV
« Reply #39 on: 16 June 2012, 07:52:56 PM »
You remind me of myself when I got my hands on first internet forums about guitar playing. :P
I also had a lot to say (and even more to ask), so my posts were pretty vast.
By the way, I like Norway and Scandinavia very much. Norse tradition is one of my other obsessions besides AV-industry. ;)
Please don't worry, UK/US/Italian and other mates - I also admire your countries as well!
Hehe, yes sometimes it's difficult to keep it short :P
Yes Norway has some incredible nature, and some of the old cultural heritage (mostly kept around by northerners, I think) is quite cool :) Like the Vikikngs! :D
Btw, my mom is of northern heritage but my dad is actually English :P so I've only ever spoken English with him, and heard alot about the stuff he used to get up to as a kid and the British culture. I've only been to England twice, but I feel quite at home there.. I do miss it. Norwegian people can be quite... "Cold", and a bit boring :P. I live in the South of Norway, though up North people tend to be more lively... Like many other cultures, including the Brit's :)
Yes, I admire the things many other countries have to offer, too :)

@ tele1962: "who" is Ricky? :P (I'm guessing it's an electrical chain, or a local dealer..? But I'm in Norway.. :P )
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Offline artur79

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Re: Why copying calibrated settings from the internet isn't worthwhile
« Reply #40 on: 16 June 2012, 10:59:28 PM »
(Do you perhaps live in Norway..?)
Yes.  :)

Offline tele1962

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Re: Why copying settings from the web won't get you a calibrated TV
« Reply #41 on: 16 June 2012, 11:23:27 PM »
You remind me of myself when I got my hands on first internet forums about guitar playing. :P
I also had a lot to say (and even more to ask), so my posts were pretty vast.
By the way, I like Norway and Scandinavia very much. Norse tradition is one of my other obsessions besides AV-industry. ;)
Please don't worry, UK/US/Italian and other mates - I also admire your countries as well!

Hehe, yes sometimes it's difficult to keep it short :P
Yes Norway has some incredible nature, and some of the old cultural heritage (mostly kept around by northerners, I think) is quite cool :) Like the Vikikngs! :D
Btw, my mom is of northern heritage but my dad is actually English :P so I've only ever spoken English with him, and heard alot about the stuff he used to get up to as a kid and the British culture. I've only been to England twice, but I feel quite at home there.. I do miss it. Norwegian people can be quite... "Cold", and a bit boring :P. I live in the South of Norway, though up North people tend to be more lively... Like many other cultures, including the Brit's :)
Yes, I admire the things many other countries have to offer, too :)

@ tele1962: "who" is Ricky? :P (I'm guessing it's an electrical chain, or a local dealer..? But I'm in Norway.. :P )


Hey Setem, Ricky is the owner of this company and i am sure would be only to pleased to deal with our Norwegian brothers and sisters. :)

http://www.chromapure.co.uk/

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Offline SETEM

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Re: Why copying calibrated settings from the internet isn't worthwhile
« Reply #42 on: 16 June 2012, 11:54:12 PM »
(Do you perhaps live in Norway..?)
Yes.  :)
Haha, cool :) Small world, 'ey? :P
I'm in Moss, Østfold, btw (the smelly town, LoL).. You..?
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Offline FoxHounder

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Re: Why copying calibrated settings from the internet isn't worthwhile
« Reply #43 on: 17 June 2012, 12:21:47 AM »
Small world, 'ey? :P
It's more like "HDTVtest™ - connecting people". :P
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Offline SETEM

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Re: Why copying settings from the web won't get you a calibrated TV
« Reply #44 on: 19 June 2012, 04:54:29 PM »
I think the "problem" here is that everyone is talking about different things.
First of all everyone should answer to the question : what is an accurate picture ? And what is an acceptable  one?
I mean, copying settings could put you in a "right" direction ( alleviating green cast for ex.) but at the same time could make worse many other things;

So if you have a giant or blatant error you want to reduce and  accept to MAKE WORSE many other aspects that are "less visible " to your naked eyes, copying settings could have sense; but this does not help to educate people to what is an accurate picture and it is a personal choice.

So ok to post and share settings but i do not agree at all when you say that is beneficial for casual users!
Well, I agree to some extent. If the user is so casual that he/she can't be bothered to read up on an explore the topic of picure quality at all, then... If they simply copy/paste and think they're getting the most out of their set, it's really just a flip of the coin whether their PQ at all improved/worsened. Not all people have the interest though, so one might as well not even take them into account when worrying about people screwing up their picture :P those people would justto "standard" or "movie" anyway if they didn't know about settings from Internet :P

It's all gonig to be down to the end user anyway, how much effort he/she will put into it. Reading, experimenting and perhaps asking for help on forums. And whether or not the user needs an entirely accurate picture. For instance, I can't get mine calibrated at the moment, but by using loads of test patterns, reading and using copied settings, and slightly altering them, my PQ is a million times better now than with any OOTB settings. Better as in things look closer to real life, or at least my perception of real life :P But (to MY eyes, as compared to MY eyes perception of the real world) I think I have a sliiight red tint near black in Pro1 with gamma close to 2.2, and a sliiiight green tint in Pro2 with gamma close to 2.4 when looking at test patterns. However I don't notice much during real content, and there is a slight tint one way or another in all the other modes anyway. And I know none of Pro1 or Pro2 are clipping black or whites t 50/60/24hz. This I have checked EXTENSIVELY using both test patterns and real content.
My point is, it may help people, or it may worsen it for them. They may take notice or they may not. It may spark someones interest or it may not.

But I fail to see how posting settings can be a bad thing in the end.
If you can't/won't even read a BIG RED f-ing disclaimer screaming at you before copying... Why should anyone care what happens to your Greyscale? :P huh? :P
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