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VALUE ELECTRONIC'S 2014 HD & UHD New Tech Shootout (date TBD)

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Offline SETEM

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Re: VALUE ELECTRONIC'S 2014 HD & UHD New Tech Shootout (date TBD)
« Reply #15 on: 26 May 2014, 12:45:45 PM »

Judging by the writing of you ... you do not understand from TV-s.
That ... that the listed TVs have similar diagonal does not make them equivalent and suitable for comparison.
So you can't see the differences in picture quality (how images are PRESENTED to you) between IPS LCD, VA LCD, plasma, CRT and OLED, then? That they have their positives and negatives, due to the nature of their technologies..?
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Offline hristoslav2

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Re: VALUE ELECTRONIC'S 2014 HD & UHD New Tech Shootout (date TBD)
« Reply #16 on: 26 May 2014, 01:19:41 PM »
I see the difference. To make a proper comparison of the two televisions, their videopanels must meet the following conditions:
- Equal diagonals
- The same resolution
- The same type of LCD matrix 
- The same type of backlight
« Last Edit: 26 May 2014, 03:06:57 PM by hristoslav2 »

Offline SETEM

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Re: VALUE ELECTRONIC'S 2014 HD & UHD New Tech Shootout (date TBD)
« Reply #17 on: 26 May 2014, 05:33:15 PM »
I see the difference. To make a proper comparison of the two televisions, their videopanels must meet the following conditions:
- Equal diagonals
- The same resolution
- The same type of LCD matrix 
- The same type of backlight
I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're saying...

In these HDTV shootouts, for example, each TV is be calibrated to ensure that it is performing as close to industry standards as it is capable of. That means displaying all the colours as the are supposed to be displayed - 50 % red should be 50% red; not 55% orange. Also, a certain level of light output in general will be needed, along with a black level which is preferably as low as possible (this is why OLED is the future; very good light output and perfect, actual black).


Example of comparison between two TV's:

*Deepest (ANSI) black level:
Winner = Panasonic 42" G30 Plasma (0.02 cd/m2)
Loser = Samsung 42" F5500 LEDLCD (0.05 cd/m2)

*Highest light output:
Winner = Samsung 42" F5500 LEDLCD (nice and bright)
Loser = Panasonic 42" G30 Plasma (not as bright)


How do you choose a TV, then, when you are the buyer? Or am I not understanding you correctly..?
Panasonic TX-P55VT60Y, PS4, PS3, X360, Wii, Pioneer VSX-421, Sony SS-FCR4000 5.0, Yamaha YST-FSW100.
(Panasonic TX-P50G30Y, Pioneer PDP-LX5090, Panasonic TX-P42ST60Y)

Offline David Mackenzie

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Re: VALUE ELECTRONIC'S 2014 HD & UHD New Tech Shootout (date TBD)
« Reply #18 on: 27 May 2014, 01:05:31 AM »
Quote
in order to make accurate comparisons of a group of televisions, they should have similar panels and processors.
Not in this case; the point is to find the best display, period - not to find the best IPS display, the best VA display, the best PDP display, or the best display that happens to have Brand X of video processor inside it.
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Offline FoxHounder

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Re: VALUE ELECTRONIC'S 2014 HD & UHD New Tech Shootout (date TBD)
« Reply #19 on: 27 May 2014, 09:06:32 AM »
I don't think anyone should care about processor brand, if the final video performance is adequate.
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Offline hristoslav2

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Re: VALUE ELECTRONIC'S 2014 HD & UHD New Tech Shootout (date TBD)
« Reply #20 on: 27 May 2014, 11:07:32 AM »
I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're saying...
I want to say that different panels have different performance as a result.
Not to mention that the generally accepted standard is wrong!!

Not in this case; the point is to find the best display, period - not to find the best IPS display, the best VA display, the best PDP display, or the best display that happens to have Brand X of video processor inside it.
If you think so - you're wrong. Then you need not waste time in measurements and settings. Your way, the winning display is fixed in advance. You can not equate the two different technologies.

I don't think anyone should care about processor brand, if the final video performance is adequate.
Video performance is related with software and the videopanel. Unfortunately there is not a review in which IT professionals and mathematicians analyze software packages themselves ... Producers do not give access to them. In 90% of cases developers looking for the simplest solution, but not the correct one.
« Last Edit: 27 May 2014, 11:18:34 AM by hristoslav2 »

Offline FoxHounder

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Re: VALUE ELECTRONIC'S 2014 HD & UHD New Tech Shootout (date TBD)
« Reply #21 on: 27 May 2014, 11:43:12 AM »
Video performance is related with software and the videopanel. Unfortunately there is not a review in which IT professionals and mathematicians analyze software packages themselves ... Producers do not give access to them. In 90% of cases developers looking for the simplest solution, but not the correct one.
It's a good way to make a crazy complicated review with zero effect on useful information for people who try to choose a TV.
There is a great way to evaluate a display: you should evaluate the picture quality on the final stage - where all properties of panel+hardware+software already took its effect.
That's how everybody does it, basically. Otherwise you'll be doing a great load of totally pointless work.
After all, it's just a TV, not frickin' rocket science. :P
« Last Edit: 27 May 2014, 12:06:54 PM by FoxHounder »
Video: Panasonic TX-PR55VT60 + Pioneer BDP-140
Audio: Onkyo TX-NR626 + Boston Acoustics CS260 II 5.1

Offline SETEM

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Re: VALUE ELECTRONIC'S 2014 HD & UHD New Tech Shootout (date TBD)
« Reply #22 on: 27 May 2014, 03:56:13 PM »
So, hristoslav2, you are basically saying that you cannot compare two things "fairly" unless they are made up of the same parts then... So you cannot compare a Bugatti Veyron to a Ford Escort and conclude that the Bugatti is faster?

And you say that the "accepted standards" are "wrong"..? Do you know why those standards are there? And why they are as they are? The standards are there to ensure that colours, lighting and other elements, which make up the "mood" and "effect" of a scene, are displayed correctly in the end, on any screen (TV/Projector/Monitor). They ensure that the end viewer are seeing things as closely to what the director intended as possible.
The reason they may seem "wrong" - that they will not make a screen perfectly mirror reality (I'm not sure what you mean, really...) - is simply because of limitations in display technologies, and partly because of history and "simplicity". Sure, some TV's have wider colour gamuts than others, and they all differ in terms of performance, but making one standard for each TV to maximise its potential is NOT an option in the real world at the moment. Also, NO TV (AFAIK) can accurately reproduce reality, like a "mirror".

Lastly, though, with all taken into account: How do you choose a TV, then, when you are the buyer?
Panasonic TX-P55VT60Y, PS4, PS3, X360, Wii, Pioneer VSX-421, Sony SS-FCR4000 5.0, Yamaha YST-FSW100.
(Panasonic TX-P50G30Y, Pioneer PDP-LX5090, Panasonic TX-P42ST60Y)

Offline FoxHounder

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Re: VALUE ELECTRONIC'S 2014 HD & UHD New Tech Shootout (date TBD)
« Reply #23 on: 27 May 2014, 04:09:07 PM »
Lastly, though, with all taken into account: How do you choose a TV, then, when you are the buyer?
I think, one should read through all MediaTek (etc.) SoC datasheets and decide if its core architecture suits your everyday TV viewing needs. :nod:
The picture comes into the game far later, after you can reproduce TV's electrical scheme from memory. Yours, not PC's.
« Last Edit: 27 May 2014, 04:11:53 PM by FoxHounder »
Video: Panasonic TX-PR55VT60 + Pioneer BDP-140
Audio: Onkyo TX-NR626 + Boston Acoustics CS260 II 5.1

Offline David Mackenzie

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Re: VALUE ELECTRONIC'S 2014 HD & UHD New Tech Shootout (date TBD)
« Reply #24 on: 27 May 2014, 11:44:47 PM »
Quote
Your way, the winning display is fixed in advance.
I guess it is, there's usually one clearly best display. All I can say to that is, "don't shoot the messenger!"
HDTVTest.co.uk Reviewer & US Correspondent
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Offline hristoslav2

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Re: VALUE ELECTRONIC'S 2014 HD & UHD New Tech Shootout (date TBD)
« Reply #25 on: 28 May 2014, 04:40:34 PM »
It's a good way to make a crazy complicated review with zero effect on useful information for people who try to choose a TV.
There is a great way to evaluate a display: you should evaluate the picture quality on the final stage - where all properties of panel+hardware+software already took its effect.
That's how everybody does it, basically. Otherwise you'll be doing a great load of totally pointless work.
After all, it's just a TV, not frickin' rocket science. :P
Yes - apparently for like you, this review would be pointless. 99% of ordinary buyers do not understand picture quality and trust blindly on every review. The question is how the review and comparisons are correct ....

So, hristoslav2, you are basically saying that you cannot compare two things "fairly" unless they are made up of the same parts then... So you cannot compare a Bugatti Veyron to a Ford Escort and conclude that the Bugatti is faster?

And you say that the "accepted standards" are "wrong"..? Do you know why those standards are there? And why they are as they are? The standards are there to ensure that colours, lighting and other elements, which make up the "mood" and "effect" of a scene, are displayed correctly in the end, on any screen (TV/Projector/Monitor). They ensure that the end viewer are seeing things as closely to what the director intended as possible.
The reason they may seem "wrong" - that they will not make a screen perfectly mirror reality (I'm not sure what you mean, really...) - is simply because of limitations in display technologies, and partly because of history and "simplicity". Sure, some TV's have wider colour gamuts than others, and they all differ in terms of performance, but making one standard for each TV to maximise its potential is NOT an option in the real world at the moment. Also, NO TV (AFAIK) can accurately reproduce reality, like a "mirror".

Lastly, though, with all taken into account: How do you choose a TV, then, when you are the buyer?
You can not compare cars that have such a striking difference in the engines ... One with 12 cylinders, the other 4 ... Start comparison with similar cars and engines - as the number of cylinders and engine displacement.

Yes, the standards are wrong. and this way because they are written by a group of poorly educated people. Standards are artificially low and changed at the insistence of the producers ..
However, I will give you an idea to think ...I guess you remember the lessons of physics at school? Remember Isaac Newton's experiment, which he placed in a dark room a beam of light through a glass prism. That opens the main colors ... which are 7. (7 and not 3 as used in televisions)
Do you know what bit is the actual color in the surrounding reality they?
Display televisions are 6 and 8 bits.

Quote
Your way, the winning display is fixed in advance.
I guess it is, there's usually one clearly best display. All I can say to that is, "don't shoot the messenger!"
I understand that you admit fault?  ::) Do you honor that you admit it.
Because if so, you will agree that if we know the used hardware and software in advance, we can determine the winning model...
« Last Edit: 28 May 2014, 06:08:57 PM by hristoslav2 »

Offline David Mackenzie

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Re: VALUE ELECTRONIC'S 2014 HD & UHD New Tech Shootout (date TBD)
« Reply #26 on: 28 May 2014, 05:12:36 PM »
Hristoslav2, I ask that you speak to people on this forum with respect rather than calling them "poorly educated".

Quote
You can not compare cars that have such a striking difference in the engines ... One with 12 cylinders, the other 4 ... Start comparison with similar cars and engines - as the number of cylinders and engine displacement.

The comparison is done between similar displays - similarly positioned and priced displays.
If Manufacturer A's best product is a poor quality one and Manufacturer B's is excellent, that is their problem and not a fault of the event.

Quote
I understand that you admit fault?  ::) Do you honor that you admit it.
No, I don't believe there is a fault.

Quote
Because if so, you will agree that if we know the used hardware and software in advance, we can determine the winning model...
I don't agree with this either. Knowing the hardware and software lets us make guesses as to what the performance will be, but you need to do thorough testing to find out what the implementation is like.
HDTVTest.co.uk Reviewer & US Correspondent
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Offline hristoslav2

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Re: VALUE ELECTRONIC'S 2014 HD & UHD New Tech Shootout (date TBD)
« Reply #27 on: 28 May 2014, 06:05:35 PM »
Hristoslav2, I ask that you speak to people on this forum with respect rather than calling them "poorly educated".

I don't agree with this either. Knowing the hardware and software lets us make guesses as to what the performance will be, but you need to do thorough testing to find out what the implementation is like.
I said - that people have written standards were poorly educated to time. Maybe cause was the lack of any information sheet that we have today.

For you is a guess, but one who knows well the types of matrices and backlights can immediately make use of rating panels.

Offline SETEM

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Re: VALUE ELECTRONIC'S 2014 HD & UHD New Tech Shootout (date TBD)
« Reply #28 on: 28 May 2014, 06:46:01 PM »
However, I will give you an idea to think ...I guess you remember the lessons of physics at school? Remember Isaac Newton's experiment, which he placed in a dark room a beam of light through a glass prism.
I study Physics in university :lol:

If you claim that it is impossible to compare two cars unless they have the same engine displacement and number of cylinders, I really think you might have misunderstood the meaning of the word "compare". For a comparison between systems/things to take place, it is NOT required that these systems/things be in any way similar, except for the fact that they must all have a measurable/observable level of whatever attribute/property you are trying to compare.

You say you cannot compare two TV's unless these and these parts are the same. Also you say the same about cars... You might as well say that it is impossible to compare two systems, unless they are identical - which is a pointless statement. If not all the parts of the systems have to be the same for your comparison, where do you draw the line..? For a car it is engine displacement and cylinders, while for a TV you say panel and structures (or whatever, I can' t be asked to re-read it). But who draws these lines? You? If so, you have yet to include one VERY important factor: "Reason".

In other words: WHY is the established way wrong, and WHY is what you are saying correct?

Lastly, again: How do you choose what TV to spend your money on, when YOU are the one buying?
Panasonic TX-P55VT60Y, PS4, PS3, X360, Wii, Pioneer VSX-421, Sony SS-FCR4000 5.0, Yamaha YST-FSW100.
(Panasonic TX-P50G30Y, Pioneer PDP-LX5090, Panasonic TX-P42ST60Y)

Offline SETEM

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Re: VALUE ELECTRONIC'S 2014 HD & UHD New Tech Shootout (date TBD)
« Reply #29 on: 28 May 2014, 06:51:16 PM »
Hristoslav2, I ask that you speak to people on this forum with respect rather than calling them "poorly educated".

I don't agree with this either. Knowing the hardware and software lets us make guesses as to what the performance will be, but you need to do thorough testing to find out what the implementation is like.
...
For you is a guess, but one who knows well the types of matrices and backlights can immediately make use of rating panels.
At HDTVtest, flatpanelshd and AVForums, they don't guess, though if that is what you believe..? They use very accurate measuring equipment, worth a whole lot of money, to measure colours, contrast etc. In case you honestly didn't know that..?
Panasonic TX-P55VT60Y, PS4, PS3, X360, Wii, Pioneer VSX-421, Sony SS-FCR4000 5.0, Yamaha YST-FSW100.
(Panasonic TX-P50G30Y, Pioneer PDP-LX5090, Panasonic TX-P42ST60Y)

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