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Test if the TVs are capable of 4:4:4 from all sources on their own.

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Offline David Mackenzie

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Re: Test if the TVs are capable of 4:4:4 from all sources on their own.
« Reply #15 on: 15 January 2015, 05:44:09 PM »

The first one is : converted 4k 8bit to 1080p 10bit 4:4:4 so the 10 bit is actually false since it adds nothing.

And then uploaded to Vimeo, which recompresses it to a tiny bitrate and using AVC Level 3.1, meaning it's 4:2:0.
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Offline Xerox

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Re: Test if the TVs are capable of 4:4:4 from all sources on their own.
« Reply #16 on: 15 January 2015, 07:01:20 PM »
Not sure about that. (see quotes below)

Anyway try not to find excuses now in order to refuse this test.
Get a 4:4:4 , 8 bit video file and a JPG and test them please.

http://vimeo.com/help/faq/sharing-videos/downloading-videos

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Why do I have to wait to download this original source file?
Sometimes when you try to access an original source file (when you click Download on the video page, then click “Original”), you may see this message:

“This source file has been lovingly stored in our archive.”

Because it’s expensive for us to store tons of original source files locally, we move some of them to our additional storage servers. This usually occurs when a file hasn’t been accessed for more than 30 days.

These files are still available for download, but you might have to wait a few hours before you can access them. We’ll email to let you know when they’re ready!

Offline David Mackenzie

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Re: Test if the TVs are capable of 4:4:4 from all sources on their own.
« Reply #17 on: 16 January 2015, 12:26:26 AM »
I'm not finding excuses or refusing to test, I'm trying to explain to you what you're missing or not understanding.

We already test for a clean 4:4:4 passthrough with every TV review. How that is achieved is up to the manufacturer. Usually it's only in the PC mode or Game Mode.

BTW, the file you just linked to:
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Offline Xerox

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Re: Test if the TVs are capable of 4:4:4 from all sources on their own.
« Reply #18 on: 16 January 2015, 12:32:36 PM »
I'm not finding excuses or refusing to test, I'm trying to explain to you what you're missing or not understanding.

We already test for a clean 4:4:4 passthrough with every TV review. How that is achieved is up to the manufacturer. Usually it's only in the PC mode or Game Mode.

BTW, the file you just linked to:



Thank you clearing this up.

Vimeo only for pro/plus users that allow the original file to be downloaded. Only then the file would be what the title says it is.

So you are allready in possession of a video file shot in 4:4:4, 8 bit that you can put on a USB stick and see if the TV renders it in 4:4:4, 8 bit without needing the PC mode/input ?

Offline David Mackenzie

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Re: Test if the TVs are capable of 4:4:4 from all sources on their own.
« Reply #19 on: 17 January 2015, 02:04:36 AM »
Almost none of them will pass clean 4:4:4 without being put in PC/Game mode, no.
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Offline Xerox

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Re: Test if the TVs are capable of 4:4:4 from all sources on their own.
« Reply #20 on: 17 January 2015, 01:15:16 PM »
Almost none of them will pass clean 4:4:4 without being put in PC/Game mode, no.


Maybe they made changes to the coming 2015 models. That is why without a test i can't know if the new models do play 4:4:4.

Here are 4:4:4 files in various resolutions (500 frames) :
https://media.xiph.org/video/derf/

ducks_take_off 720p 4:4:4 (1.3 GB)
in_to_tree 720p 4:4:4 (1.3 GB)
old_town_cross 720p 4:4:4 (1.3 GB)
park_joy 720p 4:4:4 (1.3 GB)

You need to convert the .y4m format to any format the TV plays. (you can even find free online converters)

Here a video with less frames and smaller as the above one in .ogg: http://v2v.cc/~j/theora_testsuite/ducks_take_off_444_720p25.ogg

ducks_take_off_444_720p25.ogg [7.2 MB] :
Ogg Theora video 4:4:4 pixel format, 1280x720 pixels, 25 fps, 213 frames
https://wiki.xiph.org/TheoraTestsuite

Thank you.

Offline Xerox

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Re: Test if the TVs are capable of 4:4:4 from all sources on their own.
« Reply #21 on: 19 January 2015, 08:33:54 AM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Efficiency_Video_Coding

Quote
The first version of the standard was completed and published in early 2013. The second version of the standard was completed and published in 2014 and includes the outcome of a development referred to as Range Extensions (RExt) (supporting higher bit depths and 4:0:0, 4:2:2, and 4:4:4 chroma sampling formats), scalable coding extensions, and multi-view extensions. Additional extensions remain under active development which include 3D video extensions.

Offline FoxHounder

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Re: Test if the TVs are capable of 4:4:4 from all sources on their own.
« Reply #22 on: 19 January 2015, 09:44:43 AM »
Almost none of them will pass clean 4:4:4 without being put in PC/Game mode, no.
Maybe they made changes to the coming 2015 models. That is why without a test i can't know if the new models do play 4:4:4.
Supporting 4:4:4 is not a question of trial and error like "maybe will, maybe not". Most of the consumer videochips are optimized for 4:2:2 workflow. Even if they accept 4:4:4 input, they may downsample it to 4:2:2 during scaling process.
The difference is really negligible on smaller screens, you probably wouldn't be able to discern it from standard distance, anyway.

Why does it have to be such a huge deal worth thousands of thread pages? Is it the most important feature in TV to support non-existing consumer 4:4:4 video sources? :bash:
« Last Edit: 19 January 2015, 10:41:15 AM by FoxHounder »
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Offline Xerox

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Re: Test if the TVs are capable of 4:4:4 from all sources on their own.
« Reply #23 on: 19 January 2015, 06:02:55 PM »
Almost none of them will pass clean 4:4:4 without being put in PC/Game mode, no.

Maybe they made changes to the coming 2015 models. That is why without a test i can't know if the new models do play 4:4:4.

Supporting 4:4:4 is not a question of trial and error like "maybe will, maybe not". Most of the consumer videochips are optimized for 4:2:2 workflow. Even if they accept 4:4:4 input, they may downsample it to 4:2:2 during scaling process.
The difference is really negligible on smaller screens, you probably wouldn't be able to discern it from standard distance, anyway.

Why does it have to be such a huge deal worth thousands of thread pages? Is it the most important feature in TV to support non-existing consumer 4:4:4 video sources? :bash:


A new camera that supports 4:4:4 (video and pictures) will require a big display like a TV to show it in full 4:4:4, without a PC.

If the TV can't do it on a USB stick, then i need something else that can.

All 2015 TVs actually use new chips like Sony for example :
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/sony-android-tv-mediatek-mt5595,28349.html

Offline Xerox

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Re: Test if the TVs are capable of 4:4:4 from all sources on their own.
« Reply #24 on: 20 January 2015, 11:09:16 PM »
Ultra HD Blu-ray: 10 bit, but still in 4: 2: 0
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.hdfever.fr/&prev=search [read comments too]

Quote
4:2:0 sucks so bad
3D only for 1080P




That is why i ask if the TVs you review are able to display content from a USB stick in 4:4:4, that the user generated with his/her own camera. [video or picture]

Click on images to enlarge :













« Last Edit: 20 January 2015, 11:16:07 PM by Xerox »

Offline David Mackenzie

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Re: Test if the TVs are capable of 4:4:4 from all sources on their own.
« Reply #25 on: 21 January 2015, 12:46:25 AM »
Yes, I know about the chroma subsampling. It wouldn't be my choice, but it's obviously been made for a reason.

I do find though, that most of the people who complain about 4:2:0, don't know what they're complaining about. Let me ask you - when was the last time you watched 4:2:0 content and thought "wow, the chroma resolution is awful"? I look at 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 masters daily, alongside the 4:2:0 downconversions, and the only time the chroma subsampling is really a big deal is for red text on a black background.

I would rather it was 4:4:4 or 4:2:0 as well - I think chroma subsampling is a silly and dated thing to put into a new format. But if it means getting the players out this year instead of in 2020, well...

BTW - the examples you posted aren't exactly fair though since the chroma planes have been resized without spatial interpolation. They wouldn't look that pixellated on any AV hardware.
« Last Edit: 21 January 2015, 01:00:24 AM by David Mackenzie »
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Offline Xerox

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Re: Test if the TVs are capable of 4:4:4 from all sources on their own.
« Reply #26 on: 21 January 2015, 11:23:37 AM »
I agree with you David. There are times when it is a big deal and it is a silly and dated thing.

The truth is i don't care what the BluRay association is making in 2015 as a standard.

All that i require is a TV that is capable of showing 4:4:4 content either from my future new camera that gives video and pictures in 4:4:4 AND to be able to show 4:4:4 broadcasting from cable/satellite when the standard changes again in 2017/2018 or 2020+.



For that to happen a simple USB stick test with 4:4:4 content would prove if the TV is capable of showing 4:4:4 content produced from a camera {video and picture} and broadcasting without a PC input.

Being able to show with a PC 4:4:4 but not being able to show 4:4:4 on its own is very dumb and makes me reluctant to purchase.

If you are able to get a video/picture file David in 4:4:4 and test it, it would be great.
The question is : if this test does show that the 2015 models can play 4:4:4 media files on a USB stick without a PC, does this mean they can also in the future be able to play content from the cable/satellite in 4:4:4 ? (they should right ?)
« Last Edit: 21 January 2015, 11:28:08 AM by Xerox »

Offline FoxHounder

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Re: Test if the TVs are capable of 4:4:4 from all sources on their own.
« Reply #27 on: 21 January 2015, 12:28:34 PM »
The question is : if this test does show that the 2015 models can play 4:4:4 media files on a USB stick without a PC, does this mean they can also in the future be able to play content from the cable/satellite in 4:4:4 ? (they should right ?)
It's not relevant, because in-built TV tuner was made with subsampled video in mind. Nobody can guarantee it will be compatible with future standards.
There's a simple rule: consumer-grade video = subsampling. I doubt 4:4:4 will be used in broadcasting, it just consumes too much bandwidth with little benefits in most cases.
4:2:2 has better chances to gain wide adoption between consumer sources.
Broadcasting is a damn huge chain of equpment and standards, nobody will change that to support 4:4:4 just for fun or for the sake of it.
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Offline Xerox

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Re: Test if the TVs are capable of 4:4:4 from all sources on their own.
« Reply #28 on: 21 January 2015, 11:10:15 PM »
You don't seem to understand fully.

Future standards or not, I can play now my own 4:4:4 content videos/pictures from my own camera by putting the media on a USB stick and insert it into the TV. That will also more or less prove that the TV is capable to show 4:4:4 from broadcasting in the year 9999+

But will the TV display it in 4:4:4 8 bit [from a USB stick] ? Yes, or no.

I am looking for a 2015 1080p TV set so at least test on 1080p screens since 4K is not yet ready for the new standard. [even that of 2015 BluRay] and BluRay will only support 4:2:0 so it's pointless to talk about it.

Can you just do the test ? since i think i repeated myself over 20 times already and in the end if you don't test and just contradict me, i just wasted days of my life.
« Last Edit: 21 January 2015, 11:14:13 PM by Xerox »

Offline Xerox

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Re: Test if the TVs are capable of 4:4:4 from all sources on their own.
« Reply #29 on: 22 January 2015, 12:06:22 PM »
But i will consider buying a 4K if the scaling from 576i to 4K is excellent and the input lag is good. Also being flicker free like monitors would be a great bonus.

So test both 1080p and 4k models for 4:4:4. Thanks.
« Last Edit: 22 January 2015, 12:08:09 PM by Xerox »